Curse

One and Two · Sep 30, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Adapters win. It also keeps the game fresh. I get to use different skills!

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 30, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axle_Fieshe

xD i made a topic exactly like this, but it was merged with the bigger one.

I guess I can expect to become assimilated, too.

Audhumla · Sep 30, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I like random changes. It keeps things from getting stale.

Naprius · Sep 30, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

i don't give a crap if they change everything. it keeps me playing

Rieselle · Sep 30, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I think the problem is that "balance changes" get released like "bugfixes".

Implying that one day, (ignoring future content), all the skills will be "balanced" and thus no more changes will occur ever. Builds that are good at that time, will forever be good after that, etc.

If that's ANet's plan, so be it.

However, if the plan is to regularly shake things up a little, then a policy or mechanism should be explicitly made to handle that, rather than (seemingly) leaving it up to the whim of the devs.

They could state, for example, "At the start of every pvp season, we will change some skills around (for fun) so that every season has a different gameplay."

Or, they could implement some sort of autobalancing or randomising system that tweaks numbers around between every season, or due to the phases of the moon or due to over/underpopularity or whatever.

RTSFirebat · Sep 30, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

They've added an aftercast time of 1.25 seconds (from my measurements) to those skills. In effect, they now work more like spells, with a cast time followed by a cooldown. I can't imagine why people would complain about the cooldown, as it's less than what casters get when they cast PBAoEs, only slightly longer than that of a normal spell, and still lets you chain them faster than standard bow attacks (without a speed buff).

1.25 seconds will take getting use to, I'll have to plan my damage spikes much more carefully now, as missing would suck. However this can easily be tested by fiing a normal arrow shot before the spiking begins.

In anycase this is much better then removing the extra damage they can have from things like Kinder arrows, so I'm pleased.

I'm not please however that "I Will Avenge You!" was not changed in anyway, even the range of the spell is the same. So IWAY will continue to be a royal pain the ass in the Tombs.

I'm at work at the moment, but I look forward to looking at the skill monitor.

BUT why no Toggleable capes and no Energy bar in the interface STILL... /doh!

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 30, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

point blank they nerfed a lot of stuff not because it was overpowerd but because they didnt want everybody playing the same builds.

on the other hand they buffed stuff not becasue it was underpowered but because they wanted people to start using it.

guess what, now its overpowered.

funny how many people defended iway on the grounds that its not all that good of a build and therefore easilly countered, then supported anet ewhen they nerfed it.

i guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

exploding flowers · Sep 30, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by knives

I have just played my Mesmer out in PvE, and I must say, I do love the skill monitor. I was just wondering about the skills balance. Decreased durations, increased recharges, I am wondering how that will help a mesmer if he/she is not running QZ, SQ, or Mantra of Recovery. I also am wondering why Guilt got put down to 5, but not Shame?

i would have loved shame to be part of it. echo shame on monks for less. <3

Rieselle · Sep 30, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

I find it hard to understand how people dont get excited over skill changes. (especially if there are buffs). I get bored pretty quickly, I dislike it when things like EDrain or Eviscerate become mandatory skills. I want to use lots of different builds and skills without knowing from the outset that I'm gimping myself.

Rieselle · Sep 30, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

I'm not please however that "I Will Avenge You!" was not changed in anyway, even the range of the spell is the same. So IWAY will continue to be a royal pain the ass in the Tombs.

Well, it's attack speed buff no longer stacks with other attack speed buffs. Does that count?

NightOwl · Sep 30, 2005, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freyas

What boggles me is that people are complaining about every skill getting nerfed- let's look at the nerf/buff average with this update:

Mesmer:
Overall, I agree with all of these changes- Inspiration is a utility line, not shutdown- if you look at the other skills, they all boost your effectiveness. Illusion/Domination are the lines based around shutting down an opponent. When 2-3 skills from inspiration magic were able to shut down a person more than a skillbar full of illusion/domination skills, there's something wrong. Energy Drain/Tap/Ether Feast are still useful skills- in fact for any non-denial purpose, they were buffed. And Energy Denial still works fine- I was playing in the arena earlier and was triggering mindwrack on elementalists in about 5 seconds- obviously the update didn't kill it- it just made it more difficult than having 2 skills that anyone could mindlessly use.

Buffs: 2, Nerfs: 4, Mixed: 4

Inspiration is NOW a utility line, not a shutdown. The game went through beta and well into release with it being full of shutdown skills, the damage to the line is quite excessive. As it was, it was almost mandatory for mezmers to pay for high priced fast casting hexes, and I don't feel that this has changed much. If something was to be done regarding this line, I'd say the best change would be to (after removing the damage done in this patch) up the cost of some of the skills while still leaving some set up to gain energy without downright denial of the opponent. This way a mez would have the option of an energy denial build while also having an option to dabble in it for some energy management.

Quote:

Necromancer

The necro really got a lot of skill buffs, on a lot of skills that rarely if ever saw the light of day. The only nerfs put the affected skills on par with the range of other skills(such as Heal Party/Aegis), and Rend Enchantments gained a benefit for investing points into curses for it.

Buffs: 12, Nerfs: 4, Mixed: 1

Necros did get a whole lot of buffs. However, for pvp...they still have a less than stellar line in Soul Reaping (at least in arenas). That's another topic though, and I don't recollect too many people crying about necro nerfing.

Quote:

Elementalist

Some very nice buffs, with a big nerf to Ether Renewal and a minor one to Ward Against Foes. Ether Prodigy now triggers damage more often, but provides a lot more energy, making it a buff overall, in my opinion. Ether Renewal was likely the most broken and abused skill in the game before this update, so I think it was a good nerf. It can be difficult to make good use of now, but it's still useable and powerful with the right build. Much better than the infinite energy that it used to provide.

Buffs: 14, Nerfs: 2, Mixed: 1

Well, the water line has been sub-par, and hopefully this will help in bringing it up to speed. Seems some things were buffed when they didn't really need it though, especially in the earth line. It was already pretty solid. As for the ether renewal nerf, it was excessive. I don't know that it could be considered to be powerful anymore, but it still remains almost useful. I don't really think that it should retain it's elite status in it's current shape however. 7 seconds? C'mon man, that's just lame. Reduced duration OR reduced energy would have been more appropriate as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Monk

Single target smiting skills got boosted while the AoE ones got nerfed some. A lot of nice buffs for some of the unused skills that make them look somewhat useful now.

Buffs:10, Nerfs: 3, Mixed: 2

The nerfs still outweigh the buffs. With Ether Renewal's utility excessively curtailed, the premier smite builds (e/mos) take a huge hit. Is upping the casting time of Balths Aura to 2 seconds really necessary? It certainly isn't spammable anymore, with a 25 energy cost. Aegis...being a skill that affects the entire team, when you're seeing health bars drop across the board and need to prop people up, a 2 second casting time isn't going to cut it.

Quote:

Warrior

A lot of buffs which should help out considerably- some may still be a little weak, but overall, this update significantly helped out warrior skills.

Buffs: 11, Nerfs: 1, Mixed: 0

Again, more relatively pointless buffs. The down side of Dolyak Signet, for example, is the snare not the amount of armor it provides. -75% movement speed is pretty rough for something you use upon yourself. Personally, I don't think I'd tote this bad boy around if it gave me 500 armor unless it came with an off button. Even then it would be iffy.

Quote:

Ranger

Good boosts on skills that were sub-par. The only real nerfs was to correct an issue with the interrupts that was introduced with the last update- you were never intended to be able to fire off 4 arrows a second. The delay just takes the interrupts back to having the same time as normal attacks, just frontloaded so that you can actually interrupt with them. Dust Trap seems better to me, though if someone just hits one pulse of the trap, it does less damage than previously.

Buffs: 6, Nerfs: 5, Mixed: 1

Can't really comment too much here, as I play a ranger so rarely anymore.

Quote:

So, between all 6 professions, there were 55 skills that got buffed, 19 skills that were nerfed, and 9 that were mixed- nerfed in some way, but buffed in another. Far more skills were increased in effectiveness than were reduced- yet everyone is complaining about the skills that got nerfed.

The nerfs were to skills that people built their templates around, not to useful but not primary skills. The nerfs were, in many cases, excessive. The buffs, in many cases, were fairly lackluster. I've had some play time to try out the classes in pvp, and I found the experiance to be rather bland and less fun. Great, another 4v4 where one team is rangers and warriors, the other team is rangers, warriors, and a monk. I did see a few necros out there, some did quite well. I saw a few mez out there...they got eaten up (might be best to just go full out anti-war/ranger now, perhaps).

I've not been hugely opposed to the changes made in the past. This patch, however, is deep and wide spread changes. Smite (which I rarely play, pretty much just earlier today, normally heal monk or warrior) took hits from all angles. Tombs iway groups got some nerfs (I do play this, but note the lack of complaint on this part). Ranger interrupts were nerfed, not necessarily unjustly, but this will have a significant impact, I believe. Mez took a beating. Warriors didn't really feel much pain...but the love received wasn't earth shaking anyhow.

This type of patch might go a little smoother if Anet would post a thread for people to comment on what they feel needs nerfing, and what they feel needs buffing. Consolidated discussion on the topic, where all parties concerned have a spot to voice their opinion and KNOW it will be read (for example, that's why I'm including this paragraph in this thread).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
RTSFirebat-look deeper, the changes to IWAY were not made to that skill itself, but elsewhere. The necro Order skills took a nerf, stacking Tigers Fury and IWAY is no longer helpful (not that it was awesome anyhow, but hey). Necro Dark Fury also got a bit of a nerf (directed at IWAY, isn't it?). The tombs iway groups did take a hit in this patch.

Savio · Sep 30, 2005, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

Well, it's attack speed buff no longer stacks with other attack speed buffs. Does that count?

A loss of 17% attack speed doesn't really dent IWAY.

NightOwl · Sep 30, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

I think the problem is that "balance changes" get released like "bugfixes".

Implying that one day, (ignoring future content), all the skills will be "balanced" and thus no more changes will occur ever. Builds that are good at that time, will forever be good after that, etc.

If that's ANet's plan, so be it.

However, if the plan is to regularly shake things up a little, then a policy or mechanism should be explicitly made to handle that, rather than (seemingly) leaving it up to the whim of the devs.

They could state, for example, "At the start of every pvp season, we will change some skills around (for fun) so that every season has a different gameplay."

Or, they could implement some sort of autobalancing or randomising system that tweaks numbers around between every season, or due to the phases of the moon or due to over/underpopularity or whatever.

I like what you said, qfe.

morgothstark · Sep 30, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

The main problem is that it's the game goes through many changes in a short time.
Gamers like to play in a stable environment.

Again, this update change economic balance as well.
I know, I know - this game is not for gold collectors, but still.
Less farmers, less good items in the market, less rare materials, all will go high, but now if a charachter cannot farm, how on earth he can get those things?

The developers force the gamers to play in a specific way, they slowly remove the limited freedome the game had.
I don't always have playersto play with, Just a quick look, there are 3-5 people in mission towns. Should i sit and wait for more people to come?
I could just go out and farm a bit till more players join, but no, it's possible but not enjoyable as before

There is more I can say about this game, it started good - developers of Diablo, new game type... slowly it sinks

It's not a nerf of one or two skill that will make me leave the game, but, it adds and adds, and the ties to this game are thinning.

lol, I became to melodramatic.

GW Monkey · Sep 30, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuLu

Hope yall like the new skill monitor. I think it's fantastic.

I'd love to be able to agree with you. But I'm sorry.
ABSOLUTELY NO CLUCKING WAY.

I mean, many of these skill "balances" are drastic -- there's no need for me to discuss which -- and it has totally (again) changed gameplay. And I like that, that's the good part. Keeps things fresh, interesting.

But the Skill Monitor? In a single move they've insulted the skilled players yet again. Interruption has been dumbed down to the point anyone, and I mean any fool who screams "I R TEH PNZORING INT3RRPT0R!!", can do so accurately. With zero practice.

I was really miffed back when elite capture was made idiot-proof; took any additional meaning of "elite" away from acquiring them. But this? This is just rude.

Along this same vein, I hereby request a Fame Merchant. I don't want to play for it, I want to buy it. Something around 100g per 1 fame. No? Why not? Many non-talented people are famous due to money. It's only fair.

I know it's for the better. And I'll calm down. Maybe. It's just so damn drastic.
[[slips off muttering to himself]]

unienaule · Sep 30, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Huh. I think you insulted smart CASTERS everywhere. Suppose I want to get up Obsidian Flesh, which has a 30 sec recharge time. Do I cast it first? Nooooo. I cast armor of Earth first, "noob int3rupt0r" goes "i c4n 1nt3rrupt that," does so, and then while he's waiting for his next interrupt i get off Obsidian Flesh. It still takes effort and planning to interrupt correctly.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Sep 30, 2005, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Oh pipe down. No one can be as "elite" as you so give us a break eh? Seems most people like the skill monitor....as well as the Elite skill acquisition a while back. So tough break you're in the minority.

*Addressed to GW Monkey.

Ollj · Sep 30, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

i love all the changes.
i shouted "YES YES" after reading every one of them!

GREAT

Necros and Mesmers...
RISE!

GW Monkey · Sep 30, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Oh pipe down. No one can be as "elite" as you so give us a break eh? Seems most people like the skill monitor....as well as the Elite skill acquisition a while back. So tough break you're in the minority.

*Addressed to GW Monkey.

If we can push your ego aside (It's bloated and heavy) maybe you could see what I am talking about. Or who knows, maybe you do and just disagree. That's fine. That's what I'm doing, disagreeing. You don't like it? Take the personal insults to PM if you're going to be childish. Stop trolling in a public thread.

Now, on topic, if you think it's a good thing to get ability w/o any experience or practice, then yes I'd imagine you would like it. Some of us took the hours necessary to become good interrupters, not just in the timing of it, but in the planning, in knowing what they are casting now vs. what they'll be casting next... good interruption requires prediction as well as positioning and timing. Well it did, anyway. Now that's removed.

Sol_Vie · Sep 30, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I like the changes. Interrupt rangers haven't been hit bad- they've just been made fair. I don't have any trouble with mine. Mesmers took a hit, but come on... work around it. My favorite change? The new music! <3. I'm a band geek too, so I'm loving it.